Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: wij Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 01:24:41 +0800 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 348 Message-ID: <2e40a87aeb9e28ce23b5ebf3fcbf23dad6728a9b.camel@gmail.com> References: <101n4t1$3oc4$1@dont-email.me> <101nk9j$7qau$7@dont-email.me> <101os21$mg8a$1@dont-email.me> <101pqge$ta6v$5@dont-email.me> <101uaha$25sfi$1@dont-email.me> <101v4bc$2c1iv$2@dont-email.me> <1020sak$2u1is$1@dont-email.me> <1021g55$3327l$1@dont-email.me> <10236jr$3lqbg$1@dont-email.me> <10237ki$3lo0a$1@dont-email.me> <1028lsi$13r5p$1@dont-email.me> <1029nr5$1ah2f$11@dont-email.me> <102bgc0$1soug$1@dont-email.me> <102c3bn$20jl4$8@dont-email.me> <22806dcceb8dbd965792253ecfde0a7f4dc5c793.camel@gmail.com> <102c4g1$20jl4$12@dont-email.me> <102c5nb$21qj7$2@dont-email.me> <602d915e3a80042ddac7f05fb389837ce3cefc12.camel@gmail.com> <102c7dj$226jq$1@dont-email.me> <0373fc8c6462341f655385edf6d4a0664a35981d.camel@gmail.com> <102ca1c$22pmt$1@dont-email.me> <85f876c4db96fb776dabc80c4208feed6aabc76d.camel@gmail.com> <102cdon$23jal$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 19:24:43 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bf8b8c9575553bac70d62eb9d0221f21"; logging-data="2216240"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/UYprgt9FzSkZKoctFaBs3" User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 (3.56.2-1.fc42) Cancel-Lock: sha1:tuLYKqX7zO+iJtP5mx+YsDpjUX4= In-Reply-To: <102cdon$23jal$1@dont-email.me> On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 12:18 -0500, olcott wrote: > On 6/11/2025 12:14 PM, wij wrote: > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 11:14 -0500, olcott wrote: > > > On 6/11/2025 10:58 AM, wij wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 10:29 -0500, olcott wrote: > > > > > On 6/11/2025 10:11 AM, wij wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 10:00 -0500, olcott wrote: > > > > > > > On 6/11/2025 9:45 AM, wij wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:40 -0500, olcott wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 6/11/2025 9:36 AM, wij wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:20 -0500, olcott wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/11/2025 3:56 AM, Mikko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-10 16:51:49 +0000, olcott said: > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/10/2025 2:12 AM, Mikko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-08 05:38:26 +0000, olcott said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/8/2025 12:20 AM, Mikko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-07 13:51:33 +0000, olcott said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/7/2025 3:13 AM, Mikko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-06 16:17:48 +0000, olcott sa= id: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/6/2025 3:57 AM, Mikko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-04 15:59:10 +0000, olcot= t said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/4/2025 2:19 AM, Mikko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-03 20:00:51 +0000, o= lcott said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/3/2025 12:59 PM, wij wro= te: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2025-06-03 at 16:38= +0100, Mike Terry wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 03/06/2025 13:45, dbus= h wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/2/2025 10:58 PM, M= ike Terry wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if presented wit= h /direct observations/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contradicting his pos= ition, PO can (will) just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > invent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > new magical thinking = that only he is smart > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enough to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand, in order = to somehow justify his > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > busted intuitions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My favorite is that the= directly executed D(D) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > halt even though it loo= ks like it does: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/24/24 19:18, olcot= t wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> The directly executed D(D) reaches a final > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > state and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exits normally. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> BECAUSE ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE SAME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > COMPUTATION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BEEN ABORTED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> Thus meeting the correct non-halting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > criteria > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> a computation must be aborted to prevent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > infinite > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > execution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0> then this computation DOES NOT HALT (even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like it does). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right - magical thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PO simply cannot clearly = think through what's going > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > due to the multiple level= s involved.=C2=A0 In his > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > head they all become a mu= sh of confustions, but the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mystery here is why PO do= es not /realise/ that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he can't think his way th= rough it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I try something that= 's beyond me, I soon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > realise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not up to it. =C2=A0Someh= ow PO tries, gets into > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a total muddle, and concl= udes "My understanding of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes beyond that of every= body else, due to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my powers of unrivalved c= oncentration equalled by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > almost > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody on the planet, and= my ability to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate extraneous comp= lexity".=C2=A0 How did PO ever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > start > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > down this path of delusio= ns?=C2=A0 Not that that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > matters one iota... :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People seem to keep address= ing the logic of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implement > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of POOH, but it does not ma= tter how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H or D are implemented, bec= ause: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. POOH is not about the Ha= lting Problem (no logical > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > connection) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Likewise ZFC was not about wh= at is now called naive set > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To a large extent it is. Both a= re intended to describe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sets that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were tought to be usefult to th= ink about. But the naive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > set > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > theory failed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because it is inconsistent. How= ever, ZF excludes some sets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people want to consider, e.g., = the universal set, Quine's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atom. There is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no agreement whether do not sat= isfy the axiom of choice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its various > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consequences should be included= or excluded, so both ZF ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========