Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Fred. Zwarts" Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Turing Machine computable functions apply finite string transformations to inputs Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 08:20:12 +0200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 90 Message-ID: References: <0a2eeee6cb4b6a737f6391c963386745a09c8a01@i2pn2.org> <4818688e0354f32267e3a5f3c60846ae7956bed2@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="ae23edbd9f2ff10f9b4e5eebfee85502"; logging-data="200913"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18QjrlJ7RqzipitA2aggLdu" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:+Ohw3LAVS9CcC3oR1xFgxweyXww= In-Reply-To: Content-Language: nl, en-GB Op 26.apr.2025 om 22:33 schreef olcott: > On 4/26/2025 1:26 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >> Op 26.apr.2025 om 19:29 schreef olcott: >>> On 4/26/2025 12:16 PM, joes wrote: >>>> Am Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:22:42 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>> On 4/25/2025 5:09 PM, joes wrote: >>>>>> Am Fri, 25 Apr 2025 16:46:11 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>> On 4/25/2025 11:54 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/25/25 12:31 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Once we understand that Turing computable functions are only >>>>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>>>> to derived their outputs by applying finite string operations to >>>>>>>>> their inputs then my claim about the behavior of DD that HHH must >>>>>>>>> report on is completely proven. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Youy have your words wrong. They are only ABLE to use finite >>>>>>>> algorithms of finite string operations. The problem they need to >>>>>>>> solve do not need to be based on that, but on just general mappings >>>>>>>> of finite strings to finite strings that might not be described >>>>>>>> by a >>>>>>>> finite algorithm. >>>>>>>> The mapping is computable, *IF* we can find a finite algorith of >>>>>>>> transformation steps to make that mapping. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are no finite string operations that can be applied to the >>>>>>> input >>>>>>> to HHH(DD) that derive the behavior of of the directly executed DD >>>>>>> thus DD is forbidden from reporting on this behavior. >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, there are, the operations that the processor executes. How >>>>>> did you >>>>>> think it works? >>>>>> >>>>> When you try to actually show the actual steps instead of being >>>>> stuck in >>>>> utterly baseless rebuttal mode YOU FAIL! >>>> Which x86 semantics does a processor violate when deriving a halting >>>> state from the string description of DD? >>>> >>>>> When any HHH emulates DD according to the finite string transformation >>>>> rules specified by the x86 language (the line of demarcation between >>>>> correct and incorrect emulation) no emulated DD can possibly reach its >>>>> final halt state and halt. >>>> Yes, where is that line? >>>> >>> >>> Everyone claims that HHH violates the rules >>> of the x86 language yet no one can point out >>> which rules are violated because they already >>> know that HHH does not violate any rules and >>> they are only playing trollish head games. >>> >>> _DD() >>> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping >>> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping >>> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local >>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD >>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD) >>> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04 >>> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax >>> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00 >>> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f >>> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d >>> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04] >>> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp >>> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp >>> [00002155] c3         ret >>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155] >>> >>> DD emulated by HHH according to the finite >>> string transformation rules of the x86 language >>> does emulate [00002133] through [0000213c] which >>> causes HHH to emulate itself emulating DD again >>> in recursive emulation repeating the cycle of >>> [00002133] through [0000213c]. >>> >> >> Finite recursion, > > Mathematical induction proves that DD emulated by > any HHH that applies finite string transformation > rules specified by the x86 language to its input > no DD can possibly reach its final halt state. > > Several C programmer immediately spotted this > and agree to it. > No new information, no rebuttal.