Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: "Carlos E.R." Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design Subject: Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Date: Sun, 4 May 2025 19:34:34 +0200 Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <1rbln2a.1frrgzg19gl8fgN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <1rbnzz7.115dcvm12d1xs0N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <7gehelxbkf.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <6hcc1k57rk5plu40u8l8qd1oq471hmnqip@4ax.com> <5vfielxmuf.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <6toielxgld.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net /5nAXYMaHnjS8HObHFK6Dw1tGbxnTC748fSSFLnfkTgujNtZ2h X-Orig-Path: Telcontar.valinor!not-for-mail Cancel-Lock: sha1:J0EsJS3sHDTK1Pa/Pd5MUGQf/cI= sha256:OatoIRfXf99Z8jUQ/lo4fIOmHCUYlcuMCfZ8F+VY3vQ= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-CA In-Reply-To: On 2025-05-04 17:23, Jeroen Belleman wrote: > On 5/4/25 10:49, Martin Brown wrote: >> On 04/05/2025 01:27, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2025-05-04 01:53, john larkin wrote: >>>> On Sat, 3 May 2025 23:55:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R." >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2025-05-03 17:12, john larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 3 May 2025 14:24:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R." >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2025-05-02 12:03, Martin Brown wrote: >> >>>>>>>> Spain doesn't have a great deal of battery storage or pumped water. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Network grade batteries, none, I believe. There are plans for water >>>>>>> pump/generators. Some of the islands do have them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems that solar panels and wind farms mostly have the type of >>>>>>> inverter that follow the shape of the voltage already in the >>>>>>> grid, with >>>>>>> detection to bail out if things go nuts. There is the suspicion that >>>>>>> this was at least part of the problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But there is another type of inverters that force the shape, ie, >>>>>>> simulate inertia. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where do they get the energy from? >>>>> >>>>> Where does a gas turbine get the energy from? >>>> >>>> Wait, wait, let me think.... >>>> >>>> Inertia, and then burning gas? >>>> >>> >>> Well, same thing. >>> >>> Batteries, and panels and wind flaps. >> >> But you do have to have serious stored energy available at the drop of >> a hat if the inverter is to effectively resist frequency being pulled >> down by the load. > > Not really. It should have a few percent of margin to increase > power delivered when the frequency drops. The point is that the > mains grid is composed of many generators. This only works if they > take collective action. The European grid collectively has a target > dP/dF in the 20GW/Hz ballpark. Any single installation will provide > only a tiny, tiny contribution. > > Solar PV is sufficiently important in Spain that it should contribute > its part. (It's in the 19GW ballpark, more than half of demand during > daytime.) I don't know if it does. There are days when renewables have met the entire demand. .... -- Cheers, Carlos.