Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Frank Krygowski Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: Cycling and social policy Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 17:28:33 -0400 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 240 Message-ID: <101qdq4$12dtl$2@dont-email.me> References: <101f650$178mo$1@dont-email.me> <101g9rj$1hvsg$5@dont-email.me> <101hnal$24ksl$2@dont-email.me> <101mi1u$3ua51$3@dont-email.me> <101mskd$aqa$3@dont-email.me> <101n5e3$2sls$2@dont-email.me> <101n5uh$3t0p$1@dont-email.me> <101ofca$ilu4$1@dont-email.me> <2k104k1g30so0fqb1hgfh1jqfmeulbsr3u@4ax.com> <101pic0$rahk$4@dont-email.me> <101ppvv$7nm9$3@dont-email.me> <101pqr9$t4q0$1@dont-email.me> <101pssl$traa$2@dont-email.me> <101q70t$7nm9$4@dont-email.me> Reply-To: frkrygow@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2025 23:28:37 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="cd3bdef4863cc79cdb9178e77915e25b"; logging-data="1128373"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1//sQ5w+YhycCVABiuvliq/sErCzaT+j4k=" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:H3tWXONkHV9gsVD22YvzN6TYzh4= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: On 6/4/2025 4:12 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:32:45 -0400, Zen Cycle > wrote: > >> On 6/4/2025 12:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>> On 6/4/2025 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote: >>>> On 6/4/2025 10:50 AM, Zen Cycle wrote: >>>>> On 6/4/2025 9:40 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>> On 6/4/2025 3:50 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 23:43:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 11:56 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 9:17 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 5:16 AM, zen cycle wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/2025 10:15 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 8:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 11:10 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2025/05/30/opinion/lefties- pro- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> migrant- push- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back- on- tischs-e-bike-crackdown-is- obscene/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The New York Post trades heavily in sensationalism and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> political >>>>>>>>>>>>>> divisiveness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here was the main point in the New York Times article I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this issue: "Cyclists who blow through red lights without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> endangering anyone else can now be forced to appear in court. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drivers who commit the same violation cannot." As I presently >>>>>>>>>>>>>> noted here, immigrants, legal or not, were barely mentioned. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complaints centered around the fact that bikes or ebikes are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiny portion of pedestrian risk - motor vehicles are far, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous - but motoring offenses are treated far more lightly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And regarding the incident linked within your NYP article >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding a 3-year-old girl getting knocked down when she >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a protected bike lane: Both the article describing it and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bulk >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of reader comments faulted the design of the bike lane, not the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact that it was an ebike. If there was _any_ mention of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immigrants, it was minor. (I'm one of those who think that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> facility design is nuts.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, let's please remember that most immigrants are legal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many do take low paying jobs, including things like food >>>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that does not make them into illegals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I found the 'discrimination toward illegals' argument >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a macabre sort of way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I agree with you that most foreigners here are legally >>>>>>>>>>>>> present. I am a strong proponent of clarity to distinguish among >>>>>>>>>>>>> newly naturalized citizens, temporary visa holders, resident >>>>>>>>>>>>> aliens >>>>>>>>>>>>> and illegal aliens. Conflating those is dishonest if not >>>>>>>>>>>>> pernicious. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And yet you had no problem conflating a comment from a community >>>>>>>>>>>> activist who said e-bike legislation was an attempt to >>>>>>>>>>>> marginalize >>>>>>>>>>>> the immigrant community with support for illegal immigration. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It was not I. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>   From the report linked above: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "The proof? How they used a budget hearing to assail NYPD >>>>>>>>>>> Commissioner Jessica Tisch for deciding to issue criminal >>>>>>>>>>> summonses >>>>>>>>>>> to law-breaking e-bike riders, instead of mere traffic-court >>>>>>>>>>> tickets, >>>>>>>>>>> to discourage reckless road behavior. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Their gripe? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A lot of e-bike riders are delivery drivers for food apps, and >>>>>>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>>>>>> of delivery drivers are illegal immigrants — who might get >>>>>>>>>>> deported >>>>>>>>>>> if slapped with a criminal summons." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Again, that seems to be _your_ take on the reason for the >>>>>>>>>> complaints. >>>>>>>>>> But I don't think that take is justified by the total text of the >>>>>>>>>> article, nor its points of emphasis. As I read it, the main >>>>>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>>>>> was that motorists are obviously a much greater hazard, yet are >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>> treated much more gently than ebike riders. Hell, look at the >>>>>>>>>> relative >>>>>>>>>> fatality counts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Certainly, the vast majority of NYC ebike riders have nothing to do >>>>>>>>>> with delivering food. Yes, ebikers should be reasonably obedient to >>>>>>>>>> the laws ("reasonably" since nobody is perfect). But ISTM that >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> with the largest negative impact on society should be treated most >>>>>>>>>> harshly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You didn't find it odd that New Yorkers would just assume food >>>>>>>>> delivery >>>>>>>>> on electric bicycles was by illegal aliens?  I did. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If the deliverers are indeed illegal and working, that's a >>>>>>>>> violation of >>>>>>>>> Federal law, as is hiring/paying them on the employer's part. I'm >>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>> that happens but to significant numbers of electric bicycle >>>>>>>>> pilots? I'm >>>>>>>>> skeptical. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At this point, it's difficult for me to tell what we agree on or >>>>>>>> disagree on, regarding the NYT and NYP articles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For (attempted) clarity on my views: ISTM the pedestrians have >>>>>>>> complained about hazards from ebikes. ISTM others complain that >>>>>>>> errant >>>>>>>> motorists are treated more kindly than ebike riders, even though >>>>>>>> motorists constitute a much greater hazard. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And ISTM that the fundamental issue has next to nothing to do with >>>>>>>> immigrants, legal or illegal. However, some right wingers have been >>>>>>>> triggered, as usual, by the very thought of immigrants in America. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another Krygowski strawman. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I doubt many people are "triggered by the very thought of immigrants >>>>>>> in America" since most of us are descendant of immigrants. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> C'est bon >>>>>>> Soloman >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> >>>>>> We USAians are heartily welcoming of immigrants generally, and >>>>>> moreso over time. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> lol...what load of horseshit... >>>>> >>>>>  From July 2024 >>>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb- >>>>> immigration.aspx >>>>> "Significantly more U.S. adults than a year ago, 55% versus 41%, >>>>> would like to see immigration to the U.S. decreased. This is the >>>>> first time since 2005 that a majority of Americans have wanted there >>>>> to be less immigration, and today’s figure is the largest percentage >>>>> holding that view since a 58% reading in 2001. " >>>>> >>>> >>>> I believe that number.  Recent excesses and abuse of policy (and >>>> hundreds of well publicized incidents by criminal illegal aliens) have >>>> caused real and widespread (and expensive) problems. >> >> But still less than the problems - by any measure - caused by birthright >> citizens. >> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========