Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: zen cycle Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: Cycling and social policy Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 18:47:50 -0400 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 255 Message-ID: <101qiem$3ua51$14@dont-email.me> References: <101f650$178mo$1@dont-email.me> <101g9rj$1hvsg$5@dont-email.me> <101hnal$24ksl$2@dont-email.me> <101mi1u$3ua51$3@dont-email.me> <101mskd$aqa$3@dont-email.me> <101n5e3$2sls$2@dont-email.me> <101n5uh$3t0p$1@dont-email.me> <101ofca$ilu4$1@dont-email.me> <2k104k1g30so0fqb1hgfh1jqfmeulbsr3u@4ax.com> <101pic0$rahk$4@dont-email.me> <101ppvv$7nm9$3@dont-email.me> <101pqr9$t4q0$1@dont-email.me> <101pssl$traa$2@dont-email.me> <101q70t$7nm9$4@dont-email.me> <101qdq4$12dtl$2@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2025 00:47:51 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bfecda0cb0912cca615f4d2687889070"; logging-data="4139169"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/AWN4Q+q+jVDPeEPTlXXl0xCgsL6GH4jw=" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:5fk7Pw0Xg5ghTZyMEfrYidnDu2o= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <101qdq4$12dtl$2@dont-email.me> > On 6/4/2025 4:12 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:32:45 -0400, Zen Cycle >> wrote: >> >>> On 6/4/2025 12:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>> On 6/4/2025 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>> On 6/4/2025 10:50 AM, Zen Cycle wrote: >>>>>> On 6/4/2025 9:40 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 3:50 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 23:43:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 11:56 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 9:17 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 5:16 AM, zen cycle wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/2025 10:15 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 8:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 11:10 AM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2025/05/30/opinion/lefties- pro- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> migrant- push- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back- on- tischs-e-bike-crackdown-is- obscene/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The New York Post trades heavily in sensationalism and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> political >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divisiveness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here was the main point in the New York Times article I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this issue: "Cyclists who blow through red lights without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> endangering anyone else can now be forced to appear in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> court. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drivers who commit the same violation cannot." As I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> presently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noted here, immigrants, legal or not, were barely mentioned. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complaints centered around the fact that bikes or ebikes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiny portion of pedestrian risk - motor vehicles are far, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous - but motoring offenses are treated far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lightly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And regarding the incident linked within your NYP article >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding a 3-year-old girl getting knocked down when she >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a protected bike lane: Both the article describing it and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bulk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of reader comments faulted the design of the bike lane, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact that it was an ebike. If there was _any_ mention of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immigrants, it was minor. (I'm one of those who think that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facility design is nuts.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, let's please remember that most immigrants are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many do take low paying jobs, including things like food >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that does not make them into illegals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I found the 'discrimination toward illegals' argument >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a macabre sort of way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I agree with you that most foreigners here are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> legally >>>>>>>>>>>>>> present. I am a strong proponent of clarity to distinguish >>>>>>>>>>>>>> among >>>>>>>>>>>>>> newly naturalized citizens, temporary visa holders, resident >>>>>>>>>>>>>> aliens >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and illegal aliens. Conflating those is dishonest if not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pernicious. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yet you had no problem conflating a comment from a >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> activist who said e-bike legislation was an attempt to >>>>>>>>>>>>> marginalize >>>>>>>>>>>>> the immigrant community with support for illegal immigration. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It was not I. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>    From the report linked above: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "The proof? How they used a budget hearing to assail NYPD >>>>>>>>>>>> Commissioner Jessica Tisch for deciding to issue criminal >>>>>>>>>>>> summonses >>>>>>>>>>>> to law-breaking e-bike riders, instead of mere traffic-court >>>>>>>>>>>> tickets, >>>>>>>>>>>> to discourage reckless road behavior. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Their gripe? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A lot of e-bike riders are delivery drivers for food apps, and >>>>>>>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>>>>>>> of delivery drivers are illegal immigrants — who might get >>>>>>>>>>>> deported >>>>>>>>>>>> if slapped with a criminal summons." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Again, that seems to be _your_ take on the reason for the >>>>>>>>>>> complaints. >>>>>>>>>>> But I don't think that take is justified by the total text of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> article, nor its points of emphasis. As I read it, the main >>>>>>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>>>>>> was that motorists are obviously a much greater hazard, yet are >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> treated much more gently than ebike riders. Hell, look at the >>>>>>>>>>> relative >>>>>>>>>>> fatality counts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Certainly, the vast majority of NYC ebike riders have nothing >>>>>>>>>>> to do >>>>>>>>>>> with delivering food. Yes, ebikers should be reasonably >>>>>>>>>>> obedient to >>>>>>>>>>> the laws ("reasonably" since nobody is perfect). But ISTM that >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> with the largest negative impact on society should be treated >>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>> harshly. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You didn't find it odd that New Yorkers would just assume food >>>>>>>>>> delivery >>>>>>>>>> on electric bicycles was by illegal aliens?  I did. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If the deliverers are indeed illegal and working, that's a >>>>>>>>>> violation of >>>>>>>>>> Federal law, as is hiring/paying them on the employer's part. I'm >>>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>>> that happens but to significant numbers of electric bicycle >>>>>>>>>> pilots? I'm >>>>>>>>>> skeptical. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At this point, it's difficult for me to tell what we agree on or >>>>>>>>> disagree on, regarding the NYT and NYP articles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For (attempted) clarity on my views: ISTM the pedestrians have >>>>>>>>> complained about hazards from ebikes. ISTM others complain that >>>>>>>>> errant >>>>>>>>> motorists are treated more kindly than ebike riders, even though >>>>>>>>> motorists constitute a much greater hazard. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And ISTM that the fundamental issue has next to nothing to do with >>>>>>>>> immigrants, legal or illegal. However, some right wingers have >>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> triggered, as usual, by the very thought of immigrants in America. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another Krygowski strawman. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I doubt many people are "triggered by the very thought of >>>>>>>> immigrants >>>>>>>> in America" since most of us are descendant of immigrants. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> C'est bon >>>>>>>> Soloman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We USAians are heartily welcoming of immigrants generally, and >>>>>>> moreso over time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> lol...what load of horseshit... >>>>>> >>>>>>   From July 2024 >>>>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb- >>>>>> immigration.aspx ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========