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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH(DD) --- COMPUTE ACTUAL MAPPING FROM INPUT TO OUTPUT --- Using
 Finite String Transformations
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 21:15:16 +0200
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Op 24.apr.2025 om 19:46 schreef olcott:
> On 4/24/2025 3:11 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 24.apr.2025 om 05:34 schreef olcott:
>>> On 4/23/2025 7:31 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>> On 23/04/2025 16:38, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/23/2025 10:28 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/04/2025 10:02, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 22.apr.2025 om 21:50 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 4/22/2025 2:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 22.apr.2025 om 21:14 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/2025 1:10 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 22.apr.2025 om 18:38 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a function is computable if there exists an algorithm
>>>>>>>>>>>> that can do the job of the function, i.e. given an input
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the function domain it can return the corresponding output.
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Turing Machines inputs <are> finite strings, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string transformation rules <are> applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>> these finite strings to derive corresponding outputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And it has been proven that no finite string transformations 
>>>>>>>>>>> are possible that report the halting behaviour for all inputs 
>>>>>>>>>>> that specify a correct program. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> int sum(int x, int y) { return x + y; }
>>>>>>>>>> Only when people stupid assume the same thing as
>>>>>>>>>> sum(3,2) should return the sum of 5 + 3.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Therefore HHH should report on the actual input, the finite 
>>>>>>>>> string that describes a halting program. Not on the 
>>>>>>>>> hypothetical input that does not halt, because it is based on a 
>>>>>>>>> hypothetical HHH that does not abort.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you maintain that HHH should process the hypothetical 
>>>>>>>>> input instead of the actual input.
>>>>>>>>> Do you really believe that 3+2 equals 5+3?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have proven that the directly executed DD and DD
>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH according to the semantics of the
>>>>>>>> x86 language have a different set of state changes
>>>>>>>> many hundreds of times for several years.
>>>>>>> You never showed a proof. You only repeated a dream. You are 
>>>>>>> dreaming many years without any logic. You failed to show the 
>>>>>>> first state change where the direct execution is different from 
>>>>>>> the simulation. You only showed an erroneous HHH that fails to 
>>>>>>> reach the end of the simulation of a halting program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Worse than this, on more than one occasion I've actually posted 
>>>>>> traces of computation DDD(DDD) executed directly and simulated by 
>>>>>> HHH side by side.  Both traces were of course /identical/, up to 
>>>>>> the point where HHH stops simulating. 
>>>>>
>>>>> *Factually incorrect* (You are usually very careful about these 
>>>>> things)
>>>>> The call to HHH(DD) from the directly executed DD returns.
>>>>> The call to HHH(DD) from DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly return.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...because HHH stops simulating before reaching that step in the 
>>>> computation.  Note that I said
>>>>
>>>> MT:  Both traces were of course /identical/,
>>>>       *up to the point where HHH stops simulating*
>>>>
>>>> So I was factually correct.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It *is not* up to the point where HHH stops simulating.
>>>
>>> It is up to the point where the simulated versus directly
>>> executed calls HHH(DD).
>>>
>> That is exactly the same point. If not, show the difference in the 
>> traces before that point.
> 
> As soon as the directly executed DD calls HHH(DD) this
> call immediately returns.
> 
> When DD emulated by HHH calls HHH(DD) then HHH emulates
> DD and also emulates itself emulating DD. This is one
> whole recursive emulation than the directly executed
> DD can possibly get to.
Again a lot of words, which hide that you cannot show where the traces 
differ up to that point.