Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime) Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:53:29 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: References: <97db0c3aeb33a7b97dc54cdfd5661e52@www.novabbs.com> <364e1f41f24b2570a2d6ce465ddb3e4d@www.novabbs.com> <4a4c22e8971494f4276397d499bef9f4@www.novabbs.com> <0aa2409a4d4492cb92192f0206f2b152@www.novabbs.com> <036005486e41eec5a19f04c9e88e1e48@www.novabbs.com> <1cc0df73d929b7ac9cd7a8c02d7b31a3@www.novabbs.com> <3ca9b22c684cb36c51ebd3835eb32e19@www.novabbs.com> <292766bf5d14b285457c5e0eff0b1d24@www.novabbs.com> <9f221c98a1c76e37fa81084d83cd014f@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="1622692"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="9yNNWN6S3jCL2bQghupeZ7yt9QQF3aIiWb2guQimaIw"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 X-Rslight-Posting-User: e04a750cbe04de725ce24a46bcc3953c76236e3b X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$SXrfwwkvhmPeVEML8kzO1.CIxqMAfGHlu/vqe0yOMAhWXlJr9.QOK On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:36:58 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: > On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:23:03 +0000, HarryLime wrote: > >> On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 19:57:31 +0000, Will Dockery wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 8:50:21 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:02:16 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 0:44:06 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 17:11:19 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:28:12 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:12:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 20:15:36 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 19:31:54 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:29:25 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although >>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago. >>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right >>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks >>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box), >>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use >>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes >>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things >>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish >>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew >>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through, >>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit? >>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room >>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb) >>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise, >>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high >>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~ >>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance >>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it >>>>>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one >>>>>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place >>>>>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the >>>>>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka >>>>>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you >>>>>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George. And you're demonstrating your pathological >>>>>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above. >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called >>>>>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I >>>>>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's >>>>>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them >>>>>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an >>>>>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to >>>>>>>>>>> support his lie. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I haven't the time to go searching for the exact quote, but you had >>>>>>>>>> initially maintained that it was "mostly autobiographical" or "mostly >>>>>>>>>> based on your childhood," or similar words expressing the same thing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you don't have time, get your NastyGoon to search for it. In this >>>>>>>>> case I have to call your bullshit. You claimed the poem was >>>>>>>>> "autobiographical", and I tried to explain to you the difference between >>>>>>>>> creative literature and autobiography - repeatedly. You believe it's >>>>>>>>> autobiographical because you said it was autobiographical, and for no >>>>>>>>> other reason. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> George, George, George... no autobiography is 100% accurate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I've told you before, I don't think the difference between creative >>>>>>> literature and autobiography is merely one of "accuracy." The difference >>>>>>> is that in the latter one is trying to be as accurate and comprehensive >>>>>>> as possible: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the >>>>>>> truth. Whereas in the former, one is selectively recreating an >>>>>>> experience, using experiences that reinforce the story. >>>>>> >>>>>> Which has little to no bearing on one's reading a poem as as >>>>>> psychoanalytical analysis of its author. An autobiography would >>>>>> invariably be colored by its author's emotional feelings, and >>>>>> selectively limited by their choices as to what to include, and how to >>>>>> present it if included. >>>>> >>>>> Df course a biographer is going to be selective; who would want to read >>>>> a biography that included an account of every dump their subject took in >>>>> his life? The difference is that a biographer limits (or should limit) >>>>> what they include to what actually happened to the subject, while a >>>>> creative work (which has a made-up subject (has no such restraint). >>>> >>>> You're trying to change the terms, in order to change the meanings, >>>> George. >>>> >>>> How many times do I have to tell you that high school debate team >>>> tactics are not going to work here? >>>> >>>> You have stated, repeatedly, that you poem was based for the most part >>>> on your own childhood. The unnamed narrator may not be George Dance, >>>> but the events he is describing in the flashback portion of the poem are >>>> similar to your own childhood experiences. >>>> >>>> Your poem is, therefore, at least semi-autobiographical. >>>> >>>> A semi-autobiographical poem can still contain purely fictional elements >>>> (such as the narrator's psychiatric care, his revisiting his childhood >>>> home, etc.), but it is much more grounded in reality than your >>>> description of "creative fiction," which "has a made-up subject" and "no >>>> such restraint (as having to limit itself to what really happened to its >>>> subject). >>>> >>>> >>>>>> The only difference is that in an autobiography, the author is >>>>>> (supposedly) attempting to be unbiased, where as in creative literature, >>>>>> the author is allowing his biases to take center stage. >>>>> >>>>> No, that's not a difference. Biographies (including autobiographies) can >>>>> reflect their author's prejudices; one wouldn't expect a biography of >>>>> Hitler or Amin to be "unbiased" or try for equal balance. The >>>>> difference, to repeat, is that a biographer is (or should be) limited to >>>>> real, verifiable events - it's an account of what really happened - >>>>> whereas a work of creative literature has no such restraint. >>>> >>>> But I am not calling your poem autobiographical, George. I am calling >>>> it "semi-autobiographical." There is a difference between the two, as >>>> well. An autobiographical poem would have to be based entirely on fact. >>>> A semi-autobiographical poem would only have to be partially based on >>>> fact. Since your poem is partially based on fact, it is a >>>> semi-autobiographical work. >>>> >>>>>> Both provide >>>>>> glimpses into the author as a person; and some would argue that creative >>>>>> literature provides a deeper glimpse as it is allowing the reader to >>>>>> share in the author's emotional responses to their experiences (whereas >>>>>> the former is merely relating said experiences, with the cold, clinical >>>>>> detachment of a reporter). >>>>> >>>>> Sure, every literary work provides some glimpse into the author. That >>>>> does not mean that every literary work is a "biography" of someone. >>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========