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From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: The execution trace of HHH1(DDD) shows the divergence
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:02:14 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On 6/17/2025 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-06-16 21:13:36 +0000, olcott said:
>
>> On 6/16/2025 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-06-15 15:50:18 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/15/2025 5:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-06-13 15:58:46 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/13/2025 6:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-06-12 14:21:39 +0000, Richard Damon said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/12/25 12:44 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 8:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/11/25 8:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 4:06 PM, anthk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-06-07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The execution trace of HHH1(DDD) shows the divergence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of DDD emulated by HHH from DDD emulated by HHH1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH1(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shows that DDD emulated by HHH and DDD emulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH1 diverges as soon as HHH begins emulating itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From the execution trace of HHH1(DDD) shown below*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 DDD emulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] push ebp [00002183] push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002184] mov ebp,esp [00002184] mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD [00002186] push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002183 ; DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH [0000218b] call
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 000015c3 ; HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *HHH1 emulates DDD once then HHH emulates DDD once, these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> match*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The next instruction of DDD that HHH emulates is at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the machine address of 00002183.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The next instruction of DDD that HHH1 emulates is at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the machine address of 00002190.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002183 != 00002190
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] 55 push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002184] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002186] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002190] 83c404 add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 5d pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002194] c3 ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 55 push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a4] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a6] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021ab] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 83c404 add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b3] 33c0 xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b5] 5d pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b6] c3 ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine stack stack machine assembly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> address address data code language
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ======== ======== ======== ========== =============
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55 push ebp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> call HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038d1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stored at:1138d9
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55 push ebp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec mov ebp,esp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> call HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2f9
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stored at:15e301
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55 push ebp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD of HHH[0]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec mov ebp,esp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD of HHH[0]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> call HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:198d21 DDD emulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is the beginning of the divergence of the behavior*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *HHH is emulating itself emulating DDD, HHH1 never does that*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55 push ebp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD of HHH[1]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec mov ebp,esp ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD of HHH[1]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> call HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stopped
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH returns to caller
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404 add esp,+04 ; DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d pop ebp ; DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3 ret ; DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04 ; main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax ; main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d pop ebp ; main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3 ret ; main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lean Lisp first, ideally with Scheme. Go get Concrete
>>>>>>>>>>>> Abstractions
>>>>>>>>>>>> and learn about recursivity and taill call optimization.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tail optimization would at best convert recursive emulation
>>>>>>>>>>> into an infinite loop.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only for the DDD that calls the HHH that never aborts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, but you admission to the facts that show that all your
>>>>>>>>>> claims are just lies based on the category error of you not
>>>>>>>>>> making HHH actually a fixed programs, and thus DDD isn't a
>>>>>>>>>> program, and thus not something that CAN be correctly
>>>>>>>>>> simulated, just shows that you don't care about what the truth
>>>>>>>>>> actualy is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD);
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