Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery) Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems Subject: Re: The Psycho-epistemolgy of MMP Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2025 15:01:25 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: <063ee8f30a433480083f209ed41f247a@www.novabbs.com> References: <3410e67b167ee373e49c66f99f295981@www.novabbs.com> <8421131f9943baf3d06ccd3573e3e696@www.novabbs.com> <45d38853297e3885b54c3e0149a19062@www.novabbs.com> <621fd63d5582d747134dc1195cbddfba@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="3128274"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="Vf9CM7g99yqfGvzEHTw0bhrjcIfvzYBBhUuRma0rLuQ"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$jLCzbNCjE3n0mgHHkAJUPOEAGbHV6al2IfIaDdsib699rmeEpxvh2 X-Rslight-Posting-User: acd0b3e3614eaa6f47211734e4cbca3bfd42bebc On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 5:55:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: > On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 2:28:41 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: > >> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:58:37 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 13:45:51 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 4:07:04 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>> >>>>> moved from >>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=254114&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments#254114 >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 0:20:56 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That's Michael Pendragon, always the Peter Keating styled second hander. >>>>> >>>>> Essentially we're in agreement; but I have to raise two non-essential >>>>> points of disagreement. First, I would rather not refer to the subject >>>>> as "Pendragon." The subject's real name is unknown; "Michael Pendragon" >>>>> is just one of his socks, albeit the most prolific one. I would prefer >>>>> to refer to him as "MMP" (which doesn't mean you have to, of course, if >>>>> you disagree). >>>>> >>>>> Second, I don't think that Peter Keating is the best 'type' to describe >>>>> MMP in the novel. Both Keating and MMP are social metaphysicians - they >>>>> think that reality is whatever people believe it is, the "consensus" >>>>> view of reality. But so do half the novel. Where those two are different >>>>> is that Keating is content to follow the consensus, while MMP believes >>>>> he can actually control reality by controlling others' beliefs. That >>>>> makes him more like two of Rand's other protagonists from that novel, >>>>> Gail Wynand and Ellsworth Toohey. Which of those matches him best is >>>>> still an open question. >>>>> >>>>>> Why does Michael Pendragon lie and misrepresent so much? >>>>> >>>>> MMP has told us he was abused as a boy, and I think that fact is key. >>>>> Lying is one tactic children usually try at some point to escape >>>>> punishment, and an abused child has all the more reason to keep at it ad >>>>> learn how to do it successfully. Since MMP comes across as clever (at >>>>> least 120 IQ), it is also fair to think that he was able to learn to lie >>>>> successfully. So it is fair to conclude that he did learn to lie >>>>> successfully, and escape punishment, more than once. >>>>> >>>>> While no one can blame a child in that position for lying, his doing so >>>>> successfully would be giving him the wrong feedback, making him think >>>>> that he actually was changing reality by changing his parents' beliefs - >>>>> telling him that in fact reality was whatever one wanted it to be, and >>>>> that he could be that one. >>>>> >>>>> More later, but I wanted to get these two points on record quickly. >>>> >>>> Interesting, I'm starting to think both Harry Lime and Jim Senetto were >>>> actually projecting in their critiques of "My Father's House." >>> >>> I can imagine that for the Lime sock (MMP). As far as his Chimp, though, >>> I don't want to leap to that conclusion for him. Remember, he is the >>> less intelligent of the two, and in consequence he just believes and >>> says whatever MMP tells him to. That could be all he was doing in those >>> threads as well. > >> It seems that Senetto took the lead in attempting to drive Stephan >> Pickering from the newsgroup though, but that may have been fueled by >> Senetto's obvious Antisemitism. > > Thanks for reminding me. It was actually MMP who did that by bringing > NAMBLA to the group. That triggered Jim, just the way MFH triggered him > after he was told that it was really about child molesting. Poor old Senetto, is he even able to write and post anymore?