Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime) Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2025 14:33:10 +0000 Organization: novaBBS Message-ID: <9efa3c0f2707c87d2477030ee3ab19be@www.novabbs.com> References: <97db0c3aeb33a7b97dc54cdfd5661e52@www.novabbs.com> <8449fc82c39b215c669a357d5ba5e1c7@www.novabbs.com> <828e49648d553b1b3b12d02553de9e3d@www.novabbs.com> <70db94aedc38dfa3032e5330b3ffdff3@www.novabbs.com> <9fe4db6bc99acc0a742eb2d5845c249f@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="3898390"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="9yNNWN6S3jCL2bQghupeZ7yt9QQF3aIiWb2guQimaIw"; User-Agent: Rocksolid Light X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$ZLvkuU82km5mGFrldJq4ieF0hQeskyKjtrLQwpjXt3puJrmSIyP.S X-Rslight-Posting-User: e04a750cbe04de725ce24a46bcc3953c76236e3b X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 5:07:19 +0000, W.Dockery wrote: > On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:25:14 +0000, HarryLime wrote: > >> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 19:06:31 +0000, Will Dockery wrote: >>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 4:18:39 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >>>> Will Dockery wrote: >>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 19:58:55 +0000, HarryLime wrote: >> >>>>>>> Will Dockery wrote: >>>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it >>>>>>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one >>>>>>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place >>>>>>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the >>>>>>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka >>>>>>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 13:06:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you lie so much, George? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (That's a rhetorical question, as you've already intimated that your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological lying stems from you having been abused as a child.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lying Michael: I have never said, or even "intimated" (!) that I was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological, lying, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abused as a child". >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you >>>>>>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George. And you're demonstrating your pathological >>>>>>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above. >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called >>>>>>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I >>>>>>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's >>>>>>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them >>>>>>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an >>>>>>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to >>>>>>>>>>>> support his lie. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The poem is meant to be a dramatic monolgue, in the style of Browning >>>>>>>>>>>> (His "My Last Duchess" is a good example), meant to get inside the >>>>>>>>>>>> psychology of a speaker or persona. The speaker may have experienced >>>>>>>>>>>> his childhood as "abuse" - HarryLiar calls it that but the speaker >>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't. The memories of it, though, have stayed on his mind, and he >>>>>>>>>>>> wants to get rid of those memories (symbolized by burning down the house >>>>>>>>>>>> at the end). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's deliberately left to the reader to decide if the speaker actually >>>>>>>>>>>> had been abused by his father or not. I did structure it, for effect, >>>>>>>>>>>> from the least to the most abusive-seeming experiences; from having to >>>>>>>>>>>> use a back door and remove his shoes to enter the house, to doing >>>>>>>>>>>> household chores, to doing garden work in the summertime, to not being >>>>>>>>>>>> allowed to use some of the furniture, to having to stay inside alone at >>>>>>>>>>>> night and be in bed early, to being subjected to corporal punishment. >>>>>>>>>>>> Adding them together like that, it's easy enough to conclude that the >>>>>>>>>>>> father had been abusive; but I'll point out that all of those events >>>>>>>>>>>> were things children commonly experienced 50-60 years ago, and that none >>>>>>>>>>>> of them were commonly considered abusive. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As Karla Rogers often reminded us: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Try not to mistake the speaker in the poem with the writer of the >>>>>>>>>>> poem." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I'd noted in my post, Karla's oft-quoted adage (oft-quoted by you, >>>>>>>>>> that is), is simply incorrect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My previous post explains why: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "In fact, Karla's oft-quoted adage aside, one can *never* fully separate >>>>>>>>>> the two. >>>>>>>>>> For instance, all of the characters in any author's fictional novel are >>>>>>>>>> going to represent some aspect of the author. Every poem stems from its >>>>>>>>>> author's imagination... regardless of what external persons and/or >>>>>>>>>> events might have inspired it. Every literary work is similar to a >>>>>>>>>> dream construct in that regard; and like a dream construct, can be >>>>>>>>>> analyzed by a psychologist, a literary critic, or even the average >>>>>>>>>> reader. Since "My Father's House" was based to a large extent on your >>>>>>>>>> own childhood experiences, it literally begs for a psychoanalytical >>>>>>>>>> reading." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You dispute the wisdom of the mighty Karla Rogers? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are you trying to troll >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, you're the super troll, Pendragon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm here for the poetry. >>>>>> >>>>>> You're only here for the waffles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While you're only here to lie and misrepresent, Harry. >>>>> >>>>> And so it goes. >>>> >>>> >>>> Are you denying that you posted each of the statements listed below, >>> >>> As part of a discussion with others. >>> >>> Context matters. >> >> Not in this case > > Sure it does > >> How does it matter whether you were discussing the local Waffle Houses >> with Zid in several different threads, or whether you launched several >> Waffle-related threads on your own? >> >> The point is that you were discussing Waffle Houses, repeatedly, in a >> newsgroup about poetry. > > The same can be said about you right now. > > 😏 > >> Ergo, you were not here for the poetry (which you rarely discuss -- > > That's not true, I've been discussing the poetry of Robert Creeley for a > week now. ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========