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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: NastyGoon lifts a line
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2025 06:10:17 +0000
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On Sat, 8 Feb 2025 1:30:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 0:04:15 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>
>>> I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
>>> intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
>>> Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler."  And I
>>> was right in doing so.
>>>
>>> Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
>>>
>>> "Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
>>> Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
>>>
>>> That's poetry of the highest quality.
>>
>> The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
>>
>> "The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
>>
>> I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
>
> Here we have yet another example of George Dance's libelous and
> duplicitous nature.
>
> For starters he claims that NancyGene "lift(ed) the line" from Robert
> Creeley's poem.
>
> This is an obvious lie.
>
> NancyGene wrote:
>
> "Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
> Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
>
> Mr. Creeley wrote: "The days pile up like unread newspapers."
>
> The only similarity between the two is extremely superficial; i.e., that
> both use the image of piled newspapers as a simile.
>
> However, they are comparing the newspapers to two very different things.
>
> NancyGene's poem compares them to "Yesterdays" (which, in the context of
> her poem, is a metaphor for "Memories").
>
> Mr. Creeley's poem compares them to "days" (which, from the one line
> that I've read of his poem, appears to be a metaphor for "Time").
>
> In short, we have different sets of words being applied to different
> subjects.
>
> Furthermore, NancyGene's simile for Memory compares it to a stack of
> "read newspapers; whereas Mr. Creeley's poem compares Time to a pile of
> "unread newspapers."
>
> The significance between "read" and "unread" newspapers is not merely a
> matter of semantics.  As a simile for Memory, the newspapers have been
> read because they represent the daily events that the speaker has
> experienced.  These experiences are what provide the content of their
> memories.
>
> Whereas in Mr. Creeley's poem, the newspapers are unread (not
> experienced by the speaker).  Again, I have not read Mr. Creeley's poem
> (more on that later), but based on the content of the opening line, it
> appears that his poem refers to the passage of time piling up on the
> speaker like *wasted days*.  IOW, the speaker is a recluse or shut-in of
> some sort -- whether through age, infirmity, or depression.
>
> These are vastly different subjects with only a few superficial
> resemblances in their opening lines.  That is hardly an act of literary
> theft (a.k.a., plagiarism) -- in spite of Mr. Dance's accusation.
>
> Secondly, Mr. Dance's accusation of literary theft entails that
> NancyGene had been familiar with Mr. Creeley's poem.  By leveling this
> accusation at her, Mr. Dance is implying that NancyGene had knowingly
> lifted a line from Mr. Creeley's poem, without crediting the line to
> him.  I have spoken to NancyGene regarding this, and she has never heard
> of his poem.  Nor, for that matter, have I.
>
> So what, exactly is going on here?
>
> Let's summarize the above:
>
> George Dance noticed some superficial similarity between the line I'd
> quoted from NancyGene's poem and a line in a poem by Mr. Creeley.  Even
> though the similes are about different topics, and even though the
> "newspapers" are "read" in one poem and "unread" in the other (with
> different metaphoric meanings implicit in each); and even though Mr.
> Dance had no means of knowing whether NancyGene had even heard of Mr.
> Creeley's poem, he falsely accused her of literary theft.
>
> Aside: He through in one of his childish names ("NastyGoon") as well.
>
> Both NancyGene and I have attempted to track down a copy of Mr.
> Creeley's poem online, without success.
>
> To give you an idea of significance of this, I proceeded to conduct a
> similar search using the name of an obscure small press poet + a
> line/title from one of his works.  My search returned three results.
>
> Apparently Mr. Creeley's poem is more obscure than that of a poem by a
> totally unknown amateur.  Nor does this appear to be due to copyright
> laws, as I was able to find a pdf file for an entire collection of
> poetry by Mr. Creeley -- in which the poem in question had not been
> included.
>
> I'm sure that one could find a superficial match for any given line of
> poetry, as there probably billions of poems to choose from.  But why
> take my word on it.  Let's give it a try and see if I'm correct.
>
> Let's search for the opening line of Mr. Dance's most well known poem:
> "This is my father's house, although The man died thirteen years ago."
>
> The search returned a whopping 10 pages of results.
>
> There is a well known hymn by Maltbie Davenport Babcock which opens with
> "This is my father's world..." ("This is my father's world, I rest me in
> the thought of rocks and trees of skies and seas").  Of course, the
> father in this verse is the Judeo-Christian God, so while the words are
> similar enough the meanings are entirely different.
>
> Here's another example where the father is the speaker's biological one:
> it's the title of a song by Bruce Springsteen.  Bruce's relationship
> with his father in the song appears to be a loving one (and one can even
> draw a parallel between  the relationship of Little Bruce and his
> biological to one between Grownup Bruce and God).  Again, a different
> message, but the Title is *exactly* the same.
>
> Of course I would never so much as intimate that George Dance lifted the
> title of his poem from Mr. Springsteen.  I would not even imply this
> when I think it highly probable that Mr. Dance has some familiarity with
> Mr. Springsteen's song.  Since most titles are intended to call
> attention to a poem's topic, there are many poems and songs that have
> the same titles.
>
> PING! George Dance.  If you know of a site where Mr. Creeley's poem
> appears, please either post a link to it, or (copyright permissions
> allowing) post a copy of the poem itself for comparison.  From what I
> have seen of it thus far, it appears to have no relation to NancyGene's
> poem, apart from their shared use of a pile of newspapers to create
> different similes on different topics.
>
> I've never understood where your animosity toward NancyGene stems from.
> You have launched numerous attacks on her over the years, while she has
> largely abstained from the majority of your flame wars with other
> members.
>
> I have, however, always suspected that it stems from jealously on your
> part, as her posts are better written than yours, and reveal her to be
> better educated and more intelligent than yourself (in spite of your
> claims of having been a member of MENSA).
>
> I think that this latest attack was provoked by my having paid a
> well-deserved compliment to one of her poems -- as you have always been
> jealous of any poet whose work I have praised (Jim Senetto, for
> example).
>
> In conclusion, I would like to stress the fact that NancyGene's poem is
> entirely an original work, and that her opening line is one of the best
> that I have ever come across.  I prefer it to Mr. Creeley's because it
> strikes me as being universally applicable, whereas Mr. Creeley's
> (assuming I am reading correctly in its out-of-context form) deals with
> cases of isolation and clinical depression which fewer individuals have
> experienced.
>
> --

Nobody expected you to admit Nancy Gene is a second hander troll,
Pendragon.

And so it goes.