Path: nntp.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Fred. Zwarts" Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 11:19:18 +0200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 86 Message-ID: <1052i2m$1pbs1$1@dont-email.me> References: <101nq32$99vd$1@dont-email.me> <104cud2$1r72a$2@dont-email.me> <104e46s$28pqb$2@dont-email.me> <960c2417e6f691b2b12703506c207990df5b39ab@i2pn2.org> <104el09$2dpog$1@dont-email.me> <1ca786773f9ff02718c66e082bbc4182b36732ab@i2pn2.org> <104fduv$2n8gq$2@dont-email.me> <4cb5d16be8d1e6549823f35081050e7dad462da2@i2pn2.org> <104gi8j$2uc68$2@dont-email.me> <152859a4a4ef31aa45580e873eb6970c34b97ef9@i2pn2.org> <104hmb5$35gkb$1@dont-email.me> <104i15g$36mma$2@dont-email.me> <104jcqn$3jrpl$10@dont-email.me> <104lb03$13ioh$2@dont-email.me> <104lp8o$7l4q$7@dont-email.me> <104o662$18h8g$1@dont-email.me> <104oj2v$t0u4$7@dont-email.me> <104qjcg$1c0m7$1@dont-email.me> <104ruag$1ml84$3@dont-email.me> <104t5nk$1frch$2@dont-email.me> <104tuh6$264oq$9@dont-email.me> <104vij5$1jfin$2@dont-email.me> <1050juk$2qkok$6@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 09:19:18 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="a30fc417a084b19322327d5727b3117c"; logging-data="1879937"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18P/RhLh3gmyv1RYhkjSAhH" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:+y4dtlb/AqSGl35ykbA11EotfOA= In-Reply-To: <1050juk$2qkok$6@dont-email.me> Content-Language: nl, en-GB Op 13.jul.2025 om 17:38 schreef olcott: > On 7/13/2025 1:09 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >> Op 12.jul.2025 om 17:21 schreef olcott: >>> On 7/12/2025 3:17 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>> Op 11.jul.2025 om 23:05 schreef olcott: >>>>> On 7/11/2025 3:52 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>> Op 10.jul.2025 om 16:35 schreef olcott: >>>>>>> On 7/10/2025 5:54 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>> Op 09.jul.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:> >>>>>>>>> All Turing machine deciders only compute the mapping >>>>>>>>> from their actual inputs. This entails that they never >>>>>>>>> compute any mapping from non-inputs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At least one thing you understand. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From the bottom of page 319 has been adapted to this* >>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *The Linz proof does not understand this* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞ >>>>>>>    *if Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts, and* >>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn >>>>>>>    *if Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The evidence is that the input includes the code to abort and >>>>>>>>>> halt, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> abort and stop running >>>>>>>>> *IS NOT THE SAME THING AS* >>>>>>>>> abort and halt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another claim without evidence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> *It is common knowledge in the theory of computation* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Another claim without evidence. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Your lack of knowledge of computer science is not a rebuttal* >>>>> >>>>> Look at the definition of a Turing Machine (e.g., the one here). >>>>> The machine has states. Each state can be final or non-final. If >>>>> the machine's state is non-final, in the next step the machine >>>>> "does" something, namely, it can write something on the tape, move >>>>> its head, and/or change its state to a different state. This is how >>>>> the machine makes a progress. >>>> >>>> So, aborting the simulation when the machine has not yet reached its >>>> final state, is a violation of the Turing Machine. >>>> >>> >>> void DDD() >>> { >>>    HHH(DDD); >>>    return; >>> } >>> >>> So you don't understand that DDD simulated by >>> pure simulator HHH keeps repeating its first >>> line forever? >> >> Irrelevant, because that is not what HHH does. > > void DDD() > { >   HHH(DDD); >   return; > } > > I stipulated this HHH a pure simulator temporarily > overriding and superseding everything else that I ever > said about HHH. You can stipulate that, but is irrelevant for the HHH you published in Halt7.c. *That* HHH is not a pure simulator. The fact that a pure simulator fails is no proof for the correctness of the non-pure simulator. Dreaming of other simulators with other behaviour does not change the factual behaviour of the HHH we are discussing.