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Failed to connect to MySQL: (1203) User howardkn already has more than 'max_user_connections' active connectionsPath: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Casanova Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: D1.1 genotype H5N1 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 09:20:06 -0700 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 131 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: References: <3jdpqj977r90rm9fg1lm9sv9kljpap80l2@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="57098"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.20.32.1218 To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:w7qtsNm95R8dbLBk3FkTAsIagOg= Return-Path: X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 37FE022978C; Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:20:17 -0500 (EST) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08F94229783 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:20:15 -0500 (EST) id 8CD231C0494; Sat, 15 Feb 2025 16:20:10 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by newsfeed.bofh.team (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84E5A1C0422 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2025 16:20:10 +0000 (UTC) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 302F760623 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2025 16:20:09 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/302F760623; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=buzz.off id F3766DC01CA; Sat, 15 Feb 2025 17:20:08 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 17:20:08 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX182t6tLpGS+Udju3wXrd0oTXTcQViQfhI1PzMB1dPthNgXw+gL3Ovey HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 08:50:55 -0600, the following appeared in talk.origins, posted by RonO : >On 2/13/2025 4:28 PM, Bob Casanova wrote: >> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 17:44:49 -0600, the following appeared >> in talk.origins, posted by RonO : >> >>> On 2/12/2025 9:01 AM, Bob Casanova wrote: >>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 08:22:22 -0600, the following appeared >>>> in talk.origins, posted by RonO : >>>> >>>>> On 2/11/2025 10:55 PM, Bob Casanova wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 21:11:27 -0600, the following appeared >>>>>> in talk.origins, posted by RonO : >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 10:20 AM, JTEM wrote: >>>>>>>>  RonO wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Obviously, it is you that was on another planet.  The US never had >>>>>>>>> lockdowns like China.  What happened was sparse and ineffective because >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is zero room to argue here. The lockdowns were excessive. >>>>>>>> The cost was extreme. The benefit was nil. The whole damn thing >>>>>>>> was a foreseeable & foreseen mistake, assuming they weren't >>>>>>>> intentionally trying to "Reset" the economy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What planet were you living on? There never was a centralized plan to >>>>>>> control the infection in the US. Actions like lockdowns were sporadic >>>>>>> and varied from state to state, and were pretty minimal when they were >>>>>>> implemented. Arkansas tried, but neighboring states like Oklahoma >>>>>>> decided not to do it, so nothing much changed in Arkansas due to >>>>>>> boardering states with larger populations not doing much at all. >>>>>>> Testing and contact tracing were never really implemented population >>>>>>> wide, and states were pretty much on their own in terms of trying to get >>>>>>> their people tested. Companies like mine had to implement their own >>>>>>> contact tracing and testing program months after it should have been >>>>>>> started after commercial testing became available. Just recall how long >>>>>>> it was before the Biden administration gave everyone free Covid tests. >>>>>>> nearly a million people (probably more just were not counted) had died >>>>>>> by then. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> China tested whole city populations (10s of millions in each group), >>>>>>> isolated infected, and cleared Covid from their country early in the >>>>>>> pandemic, but the virus eventually came back (my guess is that some of >>>>>>> it came in with frozen food processed in other countries). No one else >>>>>>> did that, and the whole world, including China, is still suffering >>>>>>> because of that failure. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Just FYI, there were lockdowns in multiple jurisdictions. >>>>>> Just because they weren't mandated nationally (which would >>>>>> be illegal without a Federal emergency declaration) it >>>>>> doesn't mean they didn't exist. >>>>> >>>>> They existed, but not in any form that would be effective. >>>>> >>>> I said nothing about effectiveness, only that they existed. >>>>> >>>>> If your >>>>> neighbors were not doing it, it failed, and as you point out they were >>>>> also ineffective because there was no testing and isolation program like >>>>> they had in China, and if everyone wasn't doing it it was a waste of >>>>> time. The US never bothered to identify all the infected. Where in the >>>>> US were they excessive? States like Texas and Oklahoma opted to do >>>>> pretty much nothing. >>>>> >>>> California, for one. Of course, the restrictions didn't >>>> apply to the higher officials such as Newsom, who, from the >>>> video evidence (mostly surreptitious or assumed to be >>>> private), continued to operate pretty much as usual. >>> >>> California efforts were a joke. I've seen YouTube videos demonstrating >>> that nothing really was ever implemented in any effective manner, and >>> pretty much none of the neighboring states did much. They could >>> implement social distancing and outdoor dining that a lot of other >>> states could not do very well due to outdoor temperatures, but you can >>> likely find videos of customer limits in bars being ignored and such. >>> It wasn't much of any type of lock down for any significant period of >>> time. They did set up on line education systems, and a lot of kids were >>> taught at home by their usual teachers. They did things, but >>> enforcement was problematic, and likely what they did was never >>> considered to be any type of excessive burden. >>> >> So we agree: Lockdowns were implemented, but they were >> ineffective even though they caused significant personal and >> economic problems for large numbers of people. > >They were never implemented in any effective manner, nor in any way that >was a significant burden to anyone in the US. The contention that was >being rebutted was that lockdowns were excessive and a burden to the >population. That never happened in the US. > The fact that they were in your opinion ineffective (an opinion I happen to share) has nothing to do with whether they were a burden OR excessive, but if you believe that an ineffective process cannot be excessive and burdensome there's really nothing more to discuss. > >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> China was initially effective using lockdowns. They forced whole cities >>>>> to stay home and wait to be tested, and they were able to test millions >>>>> in just a couple weeks. They eradicated the infection in China for a >>>>> period of time. When the virus was reintroduced, they began to have >>>>> compliance issues because it was repeatedly reintroduced, and the >>>>> strategy failed. My guess is that they needed to irradiate all the >>>>> imports as well as implement their quarantine in order to keep the virus >>>> >from coming back because the rest of the world failed to control the >>>>> virus. That never happened in the US. Nothing even close happened in >>>>> the US. >>>>> >>>>> Ron Okimoto >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The lockdowns were indeed excessive in some venues (and >>>>>> essentially ineffective; see the Swedish data for contrast) >>>>>> and the costs were indeed extreme, in both personal and >>>>>> economic terms. >>>>>>> -- Bob C. "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov