Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 16:38:45 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: References: <45b3405a167984b8649777fdc0804b124b21e19b@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 20:46:06 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="2303194"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US On 3/29/25 3:19 PM, olcott wrote: > On 3/29/2025 2:01 PM, dbush wrote: >> On 3/29/2025 2:58 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 3/29/2025 1:37 PM, dbush wrote: >>>> On 3/29/2025 2:15 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 3/29/2025 4:31 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>> Am Fri, 28 Mar 2025 14:27:36 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 2:17 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 3:02 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 1:12 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 1:57 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:33 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 10:10 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:24 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:21 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:09 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:07 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good, because that's all that's required for a solution to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> halting problem: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are sometimes when the behavior of TM Description D >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly simulated by UTM1 does not match the behavior >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by UTM2. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Irrelevant, because to satisfy the requirements, the >>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of >>>>>>>>>>>> the described machine when executed directly must be reported. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I HAVE PROVED THAT THE REQUIREMENT IS WRONG NITWIT. >>>>>> According to what? WE require it. YOU are answering a different >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Category error. >>>>>>>>>> I want to know if any arbitrary algorithm X with input Y will >>>>>>>>>> halt >>>>>>>>>> when executed directly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is 100% impossible for any TM to take another executing TM >>>>>>>>> as its >>>>>>>>> input. >>>>>> Quit that. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> But it can take a complete description of a TM that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is not always a perfect proxy for the behavior of the direct >>>>>>> execution >>>>>>> of the underlying machine. >>>>> >>>>>> Uh yes it is. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That my proof that I am correct >>>>> is over your head is less than >>>>> no rebuttal what-so-ever. >>>> >>>> The fact that such TM description can be given to a UTM which will >>>> exactly replicate the behavior of the described TM when executed >>>> directly proves otherwise is apparently over your head. >>>> >>> >>> One cannot correctly ignore the effect that a specified >>> pathological relationship has between its simulator >>> and its input on the behavior of this input. >>> >> >> All it means is that HHH does not correctly map DDD to 1 as per the >> requirements: >> > > int sum(int x, int y) { return x + y; } > In the same way that sum(2,3) cannot be mapped to 7. > > Computations apply a set of finite string transformation > rules to an input finite string to derive an output finite > string. Right, and HHH transform the finite string of the DDD + HHH input to non-halting, which thus makes DDD halting, so HHH was wrong. > > The semantic property that input DDD specifies to HHH > is non-halting. > No, the semantic propery that the input DDD specifies to ANYONE is Halting, as DDD will halt. PERIOD (since HHH has been defined to return non-halting) The semantics of an input to a halt decider is, and only is, the program the input describes, and whether it will halt when it is run. Sorry, you are just showing you are trying to us a strawman, since your brain is just full of straw.