Path: nntp.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior of their caller Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 10:15:53 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 84 Message-ID: <1058fn9$pn5l$2@dont-email.me> References: <101nq32$99vd$1@dont-email.me> <104el09$2dpog$1@dont-email.me> <1ca786773f9ff02718c66e082bbc4182b36732ab@i2pn2.org> <104fduv$2n8gq$2@dont-email.me> <4cb5d16be8d1e6549823f35081050e7dad462da2@i2pn2.org> <104gi8j$2uc68$2@dont-email.me> <152859a4a4ef31aa45580e873eb6970c34b97ef9@i2pn2.org> <104hmb5$35gkb$1@dont-email.me> <104i15g$36mma$2@dont-email.me> <104jcqn$3jrpl$10@dont-email.me> <104lb03$13ioh$2@dont-email.me> <104lp8o$7l4q$7@dont-email.me> <104o662$18h8g$1@dont-email.me> <104oj2v$t0u4$7@dont-email.me> <104qimm$1dpnl$1@dont-email.me> <104rad9$1icss$3@dont-email.me> <104t4na$21rg3$1@dont-email.me> <104tra1$264oq$2@dont-email.me> <104vm2f$2ldm1$1@dont-email.me> <1050in9$2qkok$3@dont-email.me> <1052gji$3au6g$1@dont-email.me> <105304j$3dptv$3@dont-email.me> <105567k$5rd$1@dont-email.me> <1055kg7$2t13$6@dont-email.me> <1057pe1$l9av$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 17:15:53 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1f60905f55e1a99080af4bc76753d29b"; logging-data="842933"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+90Lf9dU0YE2uqUaPXd3Cd" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:+DvP8YDY7A8/a5gAbuOkiXKurJQ= X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250716-2, 7/16/2025), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <1057pe1$l9av$1@dont-email.me> On 7/16/2025 3:55 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2025-07-15 13:19:02 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 7/15/2025 4:15 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2025-07-14 13:19:15 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 7/14/2025 3:54 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>> On 2025-07-13 15:18:01 +0000, olcott said: >>>>> >>>>>> On 7/13/2025 2:09 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>> On 2025-07-12 14:26:09 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 7/12/2025 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2025-07-11 15:25:29 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 7/11/2025 3:40 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-07-10 14:35:11 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/10/2025 5:54 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.jul.2025 om 15:02 schreef olcott:> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All Turing machine deciders only compute the mapping >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from their actual inputs. This entails that they never >>>>>>>>>>>>>> compute any mapping from non-inputs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> At least one thing you understand. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *From the bottom of page 319 has been adapted to this* >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *The Linz proof does not understand this* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Proofs don't understand. They prove. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It fails to prove undecidability when the decider >>>>>>>>>> correctly excludes directly executed Turing machines >>>>>>>>>> from its domain. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That does not change the last sentence of the proof. Therefore the >>>>>>>>> proof proves what it would prove anyway. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It completely invalidates the proof. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, it does not. The proof reamins as it was. A proof is valid if >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> is no error in the proof. Nothing else is relevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are errors that you do not understand. >>>>> >>>>> For the purpose of these discussion it is not neessary to understand >>>>> your errors beyond that they are errors. >>>> >>>> int DD() >>>> { >>>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD); >>>>    if (Halt_Status) >>>>      HERE: goto HERE; >>>>    return Halt_Status; >>>> } >>>> >>>> *There are errors with the proof* >>> >>> You make errors with proofs. But the uncomputability of halting can be >>> (and has been) proven without errors. >> >> That the errors have never been noticed before >> IS NOT THE SAME AS THERE ARE NO ERRORS. > > If there were an error in the proof you would quote the erronoeus > inference. > The error is the requirement that a halt decider reports on the direct execution of a machine that is not an input. A halt decider computes the mapping from an input finite string to the actual behavior that this finite string actually specifies which includes HHH simulating itself simulating DDD. -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer