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From: John Harshman <john.harshman@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism
Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:38:56 -0700
Organization: University of Ediacara
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On 5/20/24 10:49 AM, Ron Dean wrote:
> John Harshman wrote:
>> On 5/19/24 3:27 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>> John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/24 8:41 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major snip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slave trading North. This is rarely mentioned in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history. And of course, history is written by the victors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tariffs imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to slavery. In fact slavery as a issue did not exist 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until 2 years after the start of the war. It was raised 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Lincoln only after Great Brittan showed an interested 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in entering into the war on the side of the South. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery was then made a moral issue, which deterred 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Britten, which earlier had outlawed slave trading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lengthy-but-ever-expanding list of topics about which you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blather sans knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so immediately after gaining independence from Britain 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there would be no hope of forming a single nation. That 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't stop them from fighting about slavery (and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> viciously at times) in the Constitutional Convention of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1787- rather a fair bit of time before the 1858 point in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time you assert (idiotically) people all of a sudden 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> became concerned with slavery. And at that Convention a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution was passed that the international slave trade 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be banned in the US in 1800.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state and Maine as a free state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> included, shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do much to inflame tensions between north and south.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disaster now called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of John Brown, and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Harper's Ferry? No? Not surprising if you think no one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cared about slavery until two years before the Civil War.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was. Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're all available. Without fail, they all inform us 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the reason they are seceding is slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> war; it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Negro") that relegates them to their lot as slaves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> War is especially disgusting. Stop it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iealsewhere. Northerners were the slavers that built slave 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ships and manufactured goods for trading and Northern 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merchants traded with native people for slaves. It was not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Southern farmers going to Africa for invading the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continent for slaves, but they bought slaves from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> northern merchant. In fact my ggggrandfather (3) gfathers 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a slave.  This also applies to most African- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was raped, and he was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not that I'm proud 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this part of my ancestory. But I have had life, which 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise I would not have had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not have had life, nor life in the US. Would my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> father and mother ever have met except for WWII - not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely.   The point is we don't always have control over 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the events that happened, and often tragedies that happen 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can have positive outcomes for some of us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> family history, and even if it's true, I don't care.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even a shitty apologist historian to support your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disgusting racist bullshit? As for your second reference, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> here's a passage from near the end (did you read anything 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> besides the title? Your scholarship is matched evenly with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your honesty- both are in the sewer):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cobden and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tariff had been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It 
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