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From: Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Commuter innovation
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 22:01:35 -0400
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On 4/4/2024 7:52 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 4/4/2024 3:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 4/4/2024 7:48 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not cherry picking. Regarding bad design or bad maintenance, I'm
>>>>>> describing what I've seen and what data has revealed in countless cities.
>>>>>
>>>>> You cherry picked one article that you thought supported your position,
>>>>> and as Jeff pointed out, the article didn't do a very good job of it. If
>>>>> you're relating 'data from countless cities', we have yet to see any
>>>>> evidence of it.
>>>>
>>>> My main position is that no amount of bike infrastructure will get a
>>>> significant number of Americans to switch from cars to bikes. Here's
>>>> evidence:
>>>> https://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/LAB_Where_We_Ride_2016.pdf
>>>>
>>>> When Phoenix's 0.6% bike mode share gets it ranked among "Cities with
>>>> the most bicyclists," that says a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Statewise, in that 2016 data Oregon led with 1.7%. But that's probably
>>>> dropped since, because it was dominated by Portland, where cycling has
>>>> recently dropped sharply. A typical state's bike mode share is 0.4%
>>>>
>>>>>> The fundamental fact is, so few people are interested in ditching
>>>>>> their cars that it's foolish for municipal governments to spend real
>>>>>> money on either design or maintenance. Funds are limited and budgets
>>>>>> are real, so corners are cut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And about design: Many starry-eyed facility advocates say "It's so
>>>>>> easy!" But totally separate bike paths are impossible in almost all
>>>>>> locations, because commercial land (i.e. where people actually need to
>>>>>> go) is already owned by someone, and is very valuable. There are rare
>>>>>> exceptions (apparently your embankment is one), but pretending that's
>>>>>> somehow normal is blatant cherry picking.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's neither rare, nor an exception, nor cherry picking from Rogers
>>>>> experience, and is well supported by the many other Europeans who post
>>>>> in this forum describing the government run infrastructure supporting
>>>>> bike lane use, _successfully_.
>>>>
>>>> There are European successes, particularly in flat northern cities with
>>>> mild climate and high density, leading to very short average trips. As I
>>>> recall, the typical Amsterdam bike ride stretches about three miles and
>>>> takes something like 20 minutes. The typical American commute is around
>>>> 20 miles one way and averages about half an hour by car.
>>>>
>>>> There are also European failures. There are the English "new towns" like
>>>> Stevenage designed specifically to make cycling super convenient, but
>>>> where cars still dominate. And there's a fairly vocal British contingent
>>>> who say "Why can't we be like Amsterdam???" (Britain overall has just a
>>>> 2% bike mode share.)
>>>>
>>> That is quite a good cherry picking example “new towns” are post 2nd world
>>> war and very car centric, the cycleways are largely rambling ie far from
>>> direct, but the main aim was to be car centric.
>>
>> Hmm. ISTM that any example of bikeway failure is now being called
>> "cherry picking"!
>>
>> Yes, those towns were post-WW2 designs. The design was intended to match
>> or exceed what was being done in Netherlands, with the expectation that
>> the ridership would match or exceed Netherlands. IOW, they designed
>> according to contemporary "state of the art." But since it was still
>> easier for folks to drive cars, they drove cars.
>> https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/19/britains-1960s-cycling-revolution-flopped-stevenage
>>
> I was somewhat harsh on Stevenage in that it did and to some extent still
> does have a direct cycleways but it absolutely was built with high capacity
> ie big wide urban roads which encourage car use. On the main road london to
> Scotland that it now is fairly obvious that it would become so car centric
> or rather not a mini Amsterdam

"... now fairly obvious" using 20:20 hindsight. But it proves one of my 
points: It's not (usually? ever?) possible to have high bike mode share 
unless there are policies or conditions that actively dissuade car use.


> 
>> Now: How do we decide what is and is not "cherry picking"?
>>
>> For example, can we stop talking about the London Embankment? Can we
>> stop touting a city where Apple, Inc. resides and contributes heavily to
>> facilities? Can we stop pretending the entire world is just like
>> Amsterdam except for bike lanes?
>>
>> Perhaps we should lay out a definition of a Typical City, and see what
>> differences in transportation mode share bike infrastructure has made in
>> only cities that meet that definition.
>>
> London is many times larger than Amsterdam or Youngstown, and as such has
> different infrastructure, there is reason that it was london where the
> first first underground trains where opened, or why no one would choose to
> drive into central unless they had a really good reason, and why the cycle
> network has largely at least the 21st century stuff has been on the direct
> routes, be that the embankment to Chiswick high road. Ie folks need direct
> routes as they are cycling a fair distance.

The question remains: What cities will qualify for the "not cherry 
picking" label?

In America, I think I can find well over 50 that have pretty good bike 
facility networks, but bike mode shares under 1%.

-- 
- Frank Krygowski