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From: nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: The Golden Ratio
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 21:49:07 +0100
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Reply-To: jjlax32@xs4all.nl (J. J. Lodder)
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erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/14/24 2:40 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 3/14/24 9:56 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:58:30 +0100, the following appeared
> >>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >>> Lodder):
> >>>
> >>>> Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:39:38 +0100, the following appeared
> >>>>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >>>>> Lodder):
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2024-03-07 22:31:27 +0000, Bob Casanova said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 17:51:40 GMT, the following appeared in
> >>>>>>>> talk.origins, posted by dgb (David)
> >>>>>>>> <david@nomail.afraid.org>:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 17:41:02 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" <J. J. Lodder> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> dgb <david@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 09:38:23 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" <J. J. Lodder>:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kalkidas <eat@joes.pub> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> dgb (David) <david@nomail.afraid.org> Wrote in message:r
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this occur by accident?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golde
n_
> > ra
> >>>> tio
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or by design?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It will never be known.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing to know there,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The thing to know, Jan, is that it hasn't all happened by
> >>>>>>>>>>>accident!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It hasn't happened at all.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You are, of course, mistaken.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wrong. Nothing "happened"; the so-called Golden Ratio, like
> >>>>>>>> all mathematical relationships which describe observed
> >>>>>>>> phenomena, is a property of physical
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> mathematical
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>    reality, no more. And,
> >>>>>>>> of course, no less.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You are wasting your breath. Bob is an incurable materialist,
> >>>>>> incapable of abstraction and idealisation,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Ummm, I didn't say that there are no parts of math which are
> >>>>> abstract, only that all math relationships WHICH DESCRIBE
> >>>>> PHYSICAL PHENOMENA are properties of those phenomena.
> >>>>
> >>>> So the integers are a property of your football scores?
> >>>> "No more, and no less", like you say,
> >>>>
> >>> Overgeneralizations and "football scores" aside...
> >>>
> >>> If I understand you, the mathematical relationships which
> >>> describe observed physical relationships do *not* describe
> >>> those relationships? OK. Maybe the word "properties" is
> >>> what's causing you grief? Or maybe it's the phrase "no more
> >>> and no less; if that's the case consider it removed,
> >>> leaving:
> >>>
> >>> "...the so-called Golden Ratio, like all mathematical
> >>> relationships which describe observed phenomena, is a
> >>> property of physical reality in the sense that it precisely
> >>> describes such physical relationship."
> >>>
> >>> Better? Clumsy, of course, but since hyperbole and/or
> >>> imprecision in general discussion is apparently verboten...
> >>
> >> The golden ratio a/b == (a+b)/a.  Observed phenomena may approximate
> >> that number, but the mathematical interest since antiquity has little to
> >> do with that.  In mathematics it appears in all kinds of surprising
> >> contexts.  Wikipedia presents many of them.
> > 
> > And it is not really a ratio of anything.
> > It is traditionally called a ratio because to the ancient Greeks
> > all numbers except the integers could only be represented as ratios.
> > It is just a number.
> > Best defined, as a number, purely arithmetically,
> > as the simplest possible continued fraction.
> > (just my preference)
> > No need to invoked more complicated concepts,
> > like square roots, solving quadratic equations, etc.,
> > or even number systems to some base,
> > 
> > Jan
> > 
> > 
> The Pythagoreans did better than that by proving that there exit 
> irrational numbers (such as the golden ratio).  The continued fraction
> representation is indeed very elegant, but it also implies an irrational
> value.

Not realy, because they did not have the number concept.
What they did prove was that there are irrational ratios.
Or the same in other words, unmeasurable ratios.

In still other words: Pythagoras himself
already blew Bob's naive conception of reality out of the water.
(while throwing his pupil into it)

Jan