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From: john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 18:50:21 -0700
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 19:10:40 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>On 10/06/2024 15:34, john larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
>>>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition,
>>>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
>>>>>> (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
>>>>>> we settled on 3').
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
>>>>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a
>>>>>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
>>>>>> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
>>>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
>>>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
>>>>>> total load isn't an issue?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
>>>>>> ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
>>>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
>>>>>> outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
>>>>>> over where they can be put into use.
>>>>>>
>>>>> We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
>>>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
>>>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
>>>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
>>>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
>>>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
>>>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
>>>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
>>>>> cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
>>>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
>>>>> depending.
>>>>
>>>> Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
>>>> cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
>>>> reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
>>>
>>> Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
>>> third to one quarter of the cost.
>>>
>>> There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
>>> instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
>>> heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
>>> for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
>>> are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
>>> this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
>>> What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
>>> to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
>>> temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
>>> necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
>>> water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
>>> so that heat loss is reduced.
>>>
>>>> How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
>>>
>>> How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
>>> weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
>>> losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
>>> the prices of gas and electricity. From
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
>>> September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
>>> and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
>>> lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
>>> who supplies the power.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
>>> a lot more information there.
>> 
>> I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
>> gas-to-electricity converter machine.
>
>There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill 
>last year:
>"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have 
>to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
>GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6"
>That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so 
>the calculation was:
>146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)
>
>The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the 
>source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1 
>cubic metre.
>
>> The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
>> electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.
>
>??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive 
>electric heating is 100% efficient!

Unless you run it through a heat pump, which makes it 300% efficient.

>
>> There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
>> CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
>> keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.
>
>Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes 
>from 2025 (probably?). See 
><https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

Bask in the cold dark.