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From: Ron Dean <rondean-noreply@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism
Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 23:41:33 -0400
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Chris Thompson wrote:
> Ron Dean wrote:
>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> major snip
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from the 
>>>>>>>>>>> North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and 
>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the slave 
>>>>>>>>>>> trading North. This is rarely mentioned in history. And of 
>>>>>>>>>>> course, history is written by the victors.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was tariffs 
>>>>>>>>>>> imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection to slavery. In 
>>>>>>>>>>> fact slavery as a issue did not exist until 2 years after the 
>>>>>>>>>>> start of the war. It was raised by Lincoln only after Great 
>>>>>>>>>>> Brittan showed an interested in entering into the war on the 
>>>>>>>>>>> side of the South. Slavery was then made a moral issue, which 
>>>>>>>>>>> deterred Britten, which earlier had outlawed slave trading.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the lengthy-but-ever-expanding 
>>>>>>>>>> list of topics about which you blather sans knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to be 
>>>>>>>>>> abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do so 
>>>>>>>>>> immediately after gaining independence from Britain there 
>>>>>>>>>> would be no hope of forming a single nation. That didn't stop 
>>>>>>>>>> them from fighting about slavery (and viciously at times) in 
>>>>>>>>>> the Constitutional Convention of 1787- rather a fair bit of 
>>>>>>>>>> time before the 1858 point in time you assert (idiotically) 
>>>>>>>>>> people all of a sudden became concerned with slavery. And at 
>>>>>>>>>> that Convention a resolution was passed that the international 
>>>>>>>>>> slave trade would be banned in the US in 1800.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when the 
>>>>>>>>>> Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, and the 
>>>>>>>>>> result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave state and 
>>>>>>>>>> Maine as a free state.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, 
>>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those 
>>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws included, 
>>>>>>>>>> shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would do much to 
>>>>>>>>>> inflame tensions between north and south.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to the 
>>>>>>>>>> Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the disaster now 
>>>>>>>>>> called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard of John Brown, 
>>>>>>>>>> and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid on Harper's Ferry? 
>>>>>>>>>> No? Not surprising if you think no one cared about slavery 
>>>>>>>>>> until two years before the Civil War.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for you, 
>>>>>>>>>> that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. Was. 
>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs.
>>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights.
>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. They're all 
>>>>>>>>>> available. Without fail, they all inform us that the reason 
>>>>>>>>>> they are seceding is slavery.
>>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander 
>>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the 
>>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the war; 
>>>>>>>>>> it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the Negro") 
>>>>>>>>>> that relegates them to their lot as slaves.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything.
>>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil War is 
>>>>>>>>>> especially disgusting. Stop it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, 
>>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do.
>>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern 
>>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with
>>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely iealsewhere. 
>>>>>>>>> Northerners were the slavers that built slave ships and 
>>>>>>>>> manufactured goods for trading and Northern merchants traded 
>>>>>>>>> with native people for slaves. It was not Southern farmers 
>>>>>>>>> going to Africa for invading the continent for slaves, but they 
>>>>>>>>> bought slaves from the northern merchant. In fact my 
>>>>>>>>> ggggrandfather (3) gfathers was a slave.  This also applies to 
>>>>>>>>> most African- Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was raped, 
>>>>>>>>> and he was hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not that I'm 
>>>>>>>>> proud of this part of my ancestory. But I have had life, which 
>>>>>>>>> otherwise I would not have had.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed in 
>>>>>>>>> Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I would not 
>>>>>>>>> have had life, nor life in the US. Would my father and mother 
>>>>>>>>> ever have met except for WWII - not likely.   The point is we 
>>>>>>>>> don't always have control over the events that happened, and 
>>>>>>>>> often tragedies that happen can have positive outcomes for some 
>>>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/ 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I for 
>>>>>>>> one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your family 
>>>>>>>> history, and even if it's true, I don't care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial 
>>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find even 
>>>>>>>> a shitty apologist historian to support your disgusting racist 
>>>>>>>> bullshit? As for your second reference, here's a passage from 
>>>>>>>> near the end (did you read anything besides the title? Your 
>>>>>>>> scholarship is matched evenly with your honesty- both are in the 
>>>>>>>> sewer):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as Cobden 
>>>>>>>> and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill Tariff had 
>>>>>>>> been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It unintentionally 
>>>>>>>> alienated an otherwise natural anti-slavery ally for what could, 
>>>>>>>> at best, be described as short term economic favors to a few 
>>>>>>>> politically connected firms and industrialists. The Confederacy 
>>>>>>>> eagerly exploited this misstep in its unsuccessful quest for 
>>>>>>>> diplomatic recognition, yet in doing so also elevated the tariff 
>>>>>>>> cause from its role as an ancillary secessionist grievance to a 
>>>>>>>> centerpiece of Lost Cause historiography."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That last bit about "Lost Cause historiography"? They are 
>>>>>>>> pointing right at you (and the racist scum who wrote your first 
>>>>>>>> shitty reference).
>>>>>>>>  You're still wrong about everything, and you're a liar, and 
>>>>>>>> you're a racist and an apologist for slavers.
>>>>>>>  >
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