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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 09:54:34 -0500
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On 3/11/2024 5:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-11 04:38:40 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 3/10/2024 11:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/10/24 8:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/10/2024 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 6:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 2:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 11:23 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:17 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 10:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:28 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 11:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 8:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:37, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 6:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:57 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 00:26, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:10 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 23:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 3:50 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 22:34, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What criteria would you use so that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ knows what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer to provide?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact same objective criteria that H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating halt deciders must make 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure that they themselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not get stuck in infinite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution. This means that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must abort every simulation that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly otherwise halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation and does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation when Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does simulate itself in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not simulate itself in recursive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact same objective criteria that H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only because Ĥ.H is embedded within Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and H is not*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dishonestly ignored that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is stipulated to use the exact same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OBJECTIVE criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is true no matter what criteria 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as H is a simulating halt decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective criteria cannot vary based on who 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the subject is. They are objective. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer to different people is the same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer if the criteria are objective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ.H can get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation because Ĥ copies its input thus 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get stuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive because H does not copy its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input thus runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong. So wrong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a dead monkey could do better. Write the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Olcott machine (not x86utm) code for Ĥ and I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would show you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a verified fact, that's just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something you want to be true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ means infinite loop. Infinite loop doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt. You see how stupid it is, to say that an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite loop halts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transitions to Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ BECAUSE 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IT IS PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO STEPS B AND C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (c) which begins at Ĥ's own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes and the key step of copying its input is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> left out so*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ runs out of params and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never runs out of params*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that isn't how any of this works. Do you even 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know what words mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) and (c) are not the same as (1) and (2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) which begins at simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then transitions 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
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