Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 19:10:40 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <v47fj0$90um$4@dont-email.me>
References: <v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me> <v45at5$3radd$1@dont-email.me>
 <7bgc6jhk2ae8lp8g3si4loehv968oorocs@4ax.com> <v468a2$7moh$1@dont-email.me>
 <jb3e6jte1qmjoi240r1ku78m3a71g2a73s@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 20:10:40 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="70ff15e958dfdb6439de2b3afa867767";
	logging-data="295894"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+x7OVyqsYgxHC328l3sES880fix8GgPYc="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:rcXP1UNOtNtvXW4oY15kXq8wrYM=
In-Reply-To: <jb3e6jte1qmjoi240r1ku78m3a71g2a73s@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-GB
Bytes: 6814

On 10/06/2024 15:34, john larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
>>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition,
>>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
>>>>> (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
>>>>> we settled on 3').
>>>>>
>>>>> SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
>>>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a
>>>>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
>>>>> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
>>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
>>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
>>>>> total load isn't an issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
>>>>> ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
>>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
>>>>> outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
>>>>> over where they can be put into use.
>>>>>
>>>> We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
>>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
>>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
>>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
>>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
>>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
>>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
>>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
>>>> cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
>>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
>>>> depending.
>>>
>>> Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
>>> cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
>>> reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
>>
>> Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
>> third to one quarter of the cost.
>>
>> There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
>> instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
>> heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
>> for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
>> are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
>> this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
>> What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
>> to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
>> temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
>> necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
>> water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
>> so that heat loss is reduced.
>>
>>> How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
>>
>> How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
>> weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
>> losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
>> the prices of gas and electricity. From
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
>> September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
>> and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
>> lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
>> who supplies the power.
>>
>> I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
>> a lot more information there.
> 
> I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
> gas-to-electricity converter machine.

There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill 
last year:
"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have 
to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6"
That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so 
the calculation was:
146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)

The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the 
source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1 
cubic metre.

> The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
> electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive 
electric heating is 100% efficient!

> There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
> CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
> keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes 
from 2025 (probably?). See 
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

-- 
Jeff