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From: Jos Boersema <Josjoha@market.socialism.nl>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: When will 'moshiach' come, 'today', but did not come ...
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:33:24 -0000 (UTC)
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title: Machiah Depends on Whom?
source: CHEVRATPINTO
link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTAK2vdySNY

Here is a whole video of the traditional (I suppose) position, that
'moshiach' and the Redemption do *not* depend on 'moshiach', because
'moshiach' is ready *today*. There is the famous story, related again in
above linked video, where someone goes to ask 'moshiach', "when he will be
coming", and 'moshiach' answers "today", but then (supposedly) does not
come. The person who asks goes home and prepares for 'moshiach' coming,
it sounds like he is preparing some kind of party, but then nothing
happens. The person then goes to ask the ruling prophet of Israel, whom
he also asked when 'moshiach' would come and who told him to go ask
'moshiach' himself, why 'moshiach' didn't come, and the prophet then
says: "he would have come today, if you had listened to his voice." The
Rabbi then goes on to explain that it is not depending on 'moshiach' to
come, but upon Israel to behave well. 'Moshiach is ready every day.

  Reply from undersigned to this video ...

Maimonides / Rambam wrote: "12. I believe with complete faith in the
coming of Moshiach, and although *he may tarry,* nevertheless, I wait
every day for him to come." This is Loshon Hara against 'moshiach',
accusing him of tarrying. This is now one of the biggest so-called Sages
in Rabbinical Judaism, who is guilty of spreading Loshon Hara against
'moshiach'. People have taken Loshon Hara, and made it the essence of
their being Jewish. I think it is bad, also because when they blame
'moshiach', they do not blame themselves for doing not enough Torah,
which means they do not understand that the solution is to do more
Torah. When 'moshiach' cannot come thanks to their lawbreaking and bad
behavior, they blame 'moshiach' for that, and may become demoralized in
the Torah generally. I have already seen jokes made against 'moshiach'
that he is tarrying.

Maimonides / Rambam is also guilty of creating the _heter iska,_
which allows rent seeking on loans from another Jew, which is a similar
destruction of the Torah finance system as Hillel the Elder created with
his _prosbul._ Perhaps when Israel finally decides to do Teshuvah for
the _prosbul_ and the _heter iska_ and the _loshon hara_ of Rambam,
and the Sun idolatry at the 2nd Temple called the Lamp of Helena,
perhaps that day the Redemption of Israel has started. If Israel does
not do Teshuvah, the curses section will take effect again eventually:
7 times worse each time. We all know what happened the last time, about
80 years ago. 7 times worse than that, who can survive it ? Redemption
is needed, the bombs got too big.  Have a good day.

   End quote. Continuing on Usenet ...

Here we see how two faced Rabbinical Judaism has become: on the one hand
they explain why 'moshiach' wants to come any moment (the story with the
bandages in the gates of Rome has the same meaning: 'moshiach' is ready
any moment, when Israel wants to Redeem themselves), but then on the
other hand, the traitor Rambam / Maimonides apparently invented that
moshiach will be tarrying, and not in an obscure place either. It is
right there in the 13 "principles of faith", which he invented; besides
the cursed 'heter iska' which is pretended to be law in the Shulchan
Aruch for example, which is another one of his cursed and law breaking
inventions.

What gives ? They don't have the courage to declare themselves for the
truth. They are apparently happy to talk about two sides of their mouth.
it may well be that this particular Rabbi in the video is different,
there was no reply yet. I am talking about the whole and the bulk of
Rabbinical Judaism. They don't care, because they earn money with their
carreers. Israel doesn't care for the truth. They don't withhold their
money. Israel themselves don't study the Torah, to notice the obvious
problems.

*

Personally about this story with the man who came to ask 'moshiach', a
story I quite often think about, I think you might interpret the story
like so ...

The man comes to ask 'moshiach': "when do you come".
'Moshiach' is overwhelmed by the sudden request for the Redemption and a
return to the truth, to peace and Justice, from Israel, and immediatley
blurts out right now !, today. Overjoyed and amazed about the sudden
Teshuvah of at least one person in Israel, they part ways, intending to
meet up soon for the Redemption. However, when the man is gone again,
'moshiach' looks at what this man is doing, and notices that it is all
about the usual: parties for themselves, greedy behavior, not caring
really about Justice, skirting around the edges, selfishness, and so on.
Typical, they do not want to Redeem themselves after all, they did not
do Teshuvah after all. Hence, there is no point in going there, meet up
and start the Redemption seriously. There is nobody there who wants to
be good. There is nobody there who can live in a Redeemed Israel. They
don't want peace, they want more parties to amuze themselves, even
though there are people hurting who need help. This people should not,
and *cannot* be Redeemed. It was merely a question out of ignorance and
misunderstanding, that the man came to ask when 'moshiach' is coming.

They did the wrong thing. Let's say they organized a party to welcome
'moshiach' and they ironed their best clothes and put them on, and
sweeped the house two times, ordered meat for the table, and so on and
so forth. Then they thought, they will greet their supposed King, have a
big meal, go to bed half drunk and the next day: conquer the world and
party forever when it's done. Live like they do now, but with even more
money and more power, at least for the rich of them, and nothing much
else changed. 

Perhaps this is how they receive their ordinary 'Kings like the Nations'
(which they asked for), and this is what these people where willing to
do for them and themselves if they could, but this is not the
Redemption.

If they had wanted the Redemption, they would quit all their bad
behavior. They would stop to gossip about other people who didn't do
much wrong, but rather than talk sneakily and angrily about people
behind their backs (not talking about criminals and actual serious bad
behavior, but more of the type like "I don't like him/her because of
[something which doesn't really matter in the bigger scheme of things],
like 'he always thinks he is funny' or 'he keeps on talking'" and that
kind of poisenous speech without much or any proof, not to be confused
with reasonable concerns about serious criminal activity. They would go
out into the people to see who needs help: that is asking 'moshiach' to
come. They would be generous, and out there to help. Rather than think
of themselves, they would be thinking and worrying about their people,
and not just their own family either (although that certainly as well),
but basically anyone (except criminals I guess). Rather than sweep their
own house twice to make a good impression on their next King (for
themselves), they would be out picking garbage from the street just
because they think it is the right thing to do, also for themselves, but
also for everyone, and for nature. Then if they do all that but they
cannot succeed to build a world of peace and justice, and they sigh over
their breath "I wish someone would help me help these people, help us
all", that is asking moshiach to come. 

That is the asking for the Redemption, and you may not even have to ask
at that point, because your 'moshiach' might already be standing right
next to you doing what you are doing with you, and suggesting something
strong and powerful to you, above and beyond the usual charity and good
works for individuals.  Something powerful like a way toward a Sovereign
Revolution with an end goal of peace and justice on a greater level
than merely giving someone food, above and beyond helping individuals
with individual activities.  You might not even know that this person
is 'moshiach' and you don't even care, and you don't even need to
care. Suddenly you might already be in the Redemption, doing it, and
only later you realize: this was where it started, this is how we asked
'moshiach' to come, and only now we realized, he was there already before
we stood there. We finally came to him, and together we Redeemed us all,
and after the necessary time and struggles, we saved the world for peace,
all that which deserved to exist.

About this difference, between charity and Redemption, it is a similar
difference as the action where Moshe Rabbeinu first saves a few people
from those vicious Egyptian guards (by killing them). That was charity,
but an individual charity, and individual and limited action, with
limited results for those people. They where saved from some kind of
ongoing abuse, but perhaps only for a moment. Israel does a lot of this
kind of charity, which is of course a good thing. Unfortunately they
threw away their 7th year debt nullification (prosbul), and are now rent
seeking against each other (heter iska), overturning the greater charity
on a Sovereign Revolutionary level, which Moshe Rabbeinu did when he
gave Israel the Torah, the laws. When Moshe Rabbeinu gave Israel the
debt nullification in the 7th year, that wasn't merely charity in an
individual case, with an often temporary effect. Those laws would do
good from generation to generation, in many houses, many cities, many
lands, and even all over the world, forever. When Israel said: "we will
do and we will hear", that was the Sovereign Revolution of charitable
and hospitable behavior and rules, which also became the Jubilee on land
(the right to free land for all, which is very important, and is still
absolutely critical to human society, even though they don't have a clue
because they don't think or want to use their heads, or both).

Since the guy in question wasn't about all that, his question about
"when will 'moshiach' come" was probably misunderstood by 'moshiach',
because 'moshiach' was so eager to get Justice and Peace established
forever, that the hope of finding someone of Israel who wanted to be
good overshadowed any caution about the reality of this possibility, but
soon after it was already discovered that this person who asked for
'moshiach' did not actually want 'moshiach' after all. It was merely
talk, perhaps curiosity, or the will to reign on top of the world with
some meaningless Empire like we have seen so many. Kind of like a
misunderstanding from both ends.

The prophet then apparently rectifies the situation, saying: if you had
understood what the 'moshiach' really wants (what we really need to do
that is, which is justice and peace), if you really had wanted to listen
or ask what you needed to do and then actually did it, then 'moshiach'
would have come that day immediately, and the Redemption would start
now.
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