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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 08:58:27 -0500
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On 9/3/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-09-02 13:31:23 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping [00002175] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 000015d2 ; call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 [00002182] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You use it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unpsecified
>>>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts" instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be if 
>>>>>>>>>>>> this HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non-input 
>>>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning 
>>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language, does not 
>>>>>>>>> suddenly change when the aborting occurs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD
>>>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that
>>>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating
>>>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given 
>>>>>>> olcott's DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that 
>>>>>>> this has halting behaviour.
>>>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it.
>>>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator 
>>>>>>> tells us that the program has a halting behaviour.
>>>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation before 
>>>>>>> it can see the halting behaviour and decides that the input is 
>>>>>>> non- halting.
>>>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class 
>>>>>>> simulator, not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too soon..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what 
>>>>>>> the world class simulator predicts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS
>>>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie.
>>>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory.
>>>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he 
>>>>>>> knows are true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp
>>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax
>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>> [000021b3] c3         ret
>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; Begin 
>>>>>>>> main()
>>>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4
>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>>>> at:1138cc
>>>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
>>>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still dreaming of the HHH that does an infinite recursion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before we can proceed to the next step you must first agree
>>>>>> that the second emulation of DDD by the emulated HHH is proven
>>>>>> to be correct on the basis that it does emulate the first four
>>>>>> instructions of DDD.
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========